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  • chuft
    Stepher
    SPECIAL MEMBER
    MODERATOR
    Level 31 - Number 9
    • Dec 2007
    • 3290

    #106
    I read about this years ago.

    First, there were lights. Even cavemen kept a fire going all night to ward off predators. Then candles and torches. People have always had artificial light, but it was fire which has a much warmer wavelength than sunlight and does not disrupt sleep because your body does not think it is daylight.

    People always lived in groups, including in cavemen times. It is supposed this is why some people are "night owls" and some are "morning people" - the natural distribution of when you sleep varies among people and it is thought this is so there are always some people in the group awake at any given time to keep watch for predators.

    Second, there is plenty you can do with even minimal or no light. Men and women have sex. Women nurse infants. People groom each other, combing hair, removing lice. People talk and plan. If you have some light from fire you can work on making or repairing tools and clothing or prepare food which has a long preparation time or work on preserving food such as by butchering a large animal and salting the meat. You can wash clothes if you prepared by having a bucket of water ready. You can cook and eat. If you live in buildings you can do maintenance work on the interior of the home. In some cultures people might pray, or meditate/think, or sneak out to commit crimes in the dark, or meet a lover for sex away from other people. Remember most people in history until very recently could not read, and books were not easily available, so it's not like they would be reading anyway even if there was plenty of light.

    Even with just starlight you can certainly do things like have sex or nurse infants or talk.

    Most of all, remember most of the year there are 10 hours of darkness or significantly more depending on latitude. Near the equator where we evolved, there are almost always 12 hours of darkness every day. If you sleep 7 or 8 hours you are going to be awake for 4-5 hours of darkness no matter what. It's not particularly radical to suggest this was in the middle of the night rather than the early part of the night (going to bed late) or the very late hours before dawn (getting up very early). Either way you are awake in the dark for a good 4 hours or more. So the question remains "what do you do in the dark" regardless of whether it's biphasic sleep or not. And people always found things to do.
    l i t t l e s t e p h e r s

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    • LazyPooky
      ADMINISTRATOR
      Level 35 - Rockin' Poster
      • Oct 2007
      • 7178

      #107
      Well if we have Negative Time now we can go back in time and find out for ourselves 😋
      Magnús: - I have fans of all ages and I don't think it's weird when older people like LazyTown. LazyTown appeals to people for many different reasons: dancing, acrobatics, etc.

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      • chuft
        Stepher
        SPECIAL MEMBER
        MODERATOR
        Level 31 - Number 9
        • Dec 2007
        • 3290

        #108
        Yes it would be very interesting to see how the very first homo sapiens lived. I have some theories about it, but they're a little mature for this forum.

        The closest you can get are newly discovered, relatively isolated hunter-gatherer tribes. But they are rare and still have hundreds of thousands of years of cultural evolution so they are not exactly cavemen. And they always live in extreme, very isolated areas so they may not be representative of most hunter gatherers.
        l i t t l e s t e p h e r s

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        • boredjedi
          Master
          SPECIAL MEMBER
          MODERATOR
          Level 35 - Rockin' Poster
          • Jun 2007
          • 7207

          #109
          More on the study of existence

          Once You Stop Talking To Yourself, The Shift Happens

          http://eighteenlightyearsago.ytmnd.com/

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          • boredjedi
            Master
            SPECIAL MEMBER
            MODERATOR
            Level 35 - Rockin' Poster
            • Jun 2007
            • 7207

            #110
            My best ever Astrophotography with just a cell phone by hand tonight of the Moon and Venus.
            You can even make out the unlit part of the moon. That always reminded me of the
            dark painted top of an older style projector bulb.

            Click image for larger version  Name:	BestEverAstroImage.jpg Views:	0 Size:	13,8 KB ID:	202600




            And it looks like Anton has finally discovered the research results that discovered quantum negative time

            http://eighteenlightyearsago.ytmnd.com/

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            • boredjedi
              Master
              SPECIAL MEMBER
              MODERATOR
              Level 35 - Rockin' Poster
              • Jun 2007
              • 7207

              #111
              Biology

              Mirror, mirror on the wall.......

              http://eighteenlightyearsago.ytmnd.com/

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              • boredjedi
                Master
                SPECIAL MEMBER
                MODERATOR
                Level 35 - Rockin' Poster
                • Jun 2007
                • 7207

                #112
                Astrophysics

                This time the Dipole Repeller

                http://eighteenlightyearsago.ytmnd.com/

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                • boredjedi
                  Master
                  SPECIAL MEMBER
                  MODERATOR
                  Level 35 - Rockin' Poster
                  • Jun 2007
                  • 7207

                  #113
                  AI 101

                  Speaking of Ai. Here's a content creator mocking all those Ai videos.
                  We don't blame him right. It's another channel I watch on the regular.
                  It was uploaded today.
                  At 15:42 The hands! The hands!

                  http://eighteenlightyearsago.ytmnd.com/

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                  • chuft
                    Stepher
                    SPECIAL MEMBER
                    MODERATOR
                    Level 31 - Number 9
                    • Dec 2007
                    • 3290

                    #114
                    I was talking about this years ago. We live in the age of lies and nonsense. The internet as I feared is becoming overrun with AI slop and misinformation to go with the existing disinformation coming from bad actors. The internet isn't useless yet but it is headed there fast. People without critical thinking skills and a lot of skepticism, who believe anything they see in a video or read in an article, are going to be profoundly misinformed.
                    l i t t l e s t e p h e r s

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                    • LazyPooky
                      ADMINISTRATOR
                      Level 35 - Rockin' Poster
                      • Oct 2007
                      • 7178

                      #115
                      Recently I was looking at old screenshots of Google search - 2008, 2009 - and searching for LazyTown resulted in information below the link from mostly forums, managed by the websites themselves. Those forums were a great way to get information from. Large amounts of text, lots of knowledge, nice interaction. It went all downhill since 2010. Now it's complete chaos, I have a hard time searching for something useful.

                      Screenshot came from Ana, I was on MSN with her in 2009.

                      Click image for larger version  Name:	2009-lazytown-results.jpg Views:	0 Size:	217,1 KB ID:	202699
                      Magnús: - I have fans of all ages and I don't think it's weird when older people like LazyTown. LazyTown appeals to people for many different reasons: dancing, acrobatics, etc.

                      Note

                      • boredjedi
                        Master
                        SPECIAL MEMBER
                        MODERATOR
                        Level 35 - Rockin' Poster
                        • Jun 2007
                        • 7207

                        #116
                        Originally posted by LazyPooky
                        It went all downhill since 2010. Now it's complete chaos, I have a hard time searching for something useful.
                        It's gotten even worse just these past 2 years. They keep messing with their search algorithm. With the added Ai in everything. Even youtube this past year has gotten worse.
                        When watching a music video, I used to get nothing but music videos in the recommended panel. Now, it's a mish mash of everything. Very annoying.
                        I think it also has something to do with my youtube Watch History turned off once they made it mandatory. Youtube don't like you fighting them.

                        There we go a full screen post
                        http://eighteenlightyearsago.ytmnd.com/

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                        • chuft
                          Stepher
                          SPECIAL MEMBER
                          MODERATOR
                          Level 31 - Number 9
                          • Dec 2007
                          • 3290

                          #117
                          Well I've posted elsewhere how Google made their search worse on purpose because people were finding what they were looking for too quickly, and not seeing enough ads.

                          Now there's an ocean of AI garbage out there too.
                          l i t t l e s t e p h e r s

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                          • BRBFBI
                            GETLAZY MEMBER
                            Level 8 - Treehouse Builder
                            • Oct 2023
                            • 74

                            #118
                            Originally posted by boredjedi
                            Anyway, I have almost forgotten to post this one about sleep I had seen when it was uploaded days ago.
                            That beginning with example of the Hungarian soldier Paul Kern.

                            I recently read Why We Sleep by Mather Walker, PhD. Our understanding of sleep has evolved tremendously in the 20 years since Robert Ekirch (the source in the video) published his findings about biphasic sleep, and while it's true that it may have been in-fashion to wake up in the middle of the night in certain cultures at certain times in history, according to Walker "there is no biological rhythm--of brain activity, neorochemical activity, or metabolic activity--that would hint at a human desire to wake up for several hours in the middle of the night. Instead, the true pattern of biphasic sleep--for which there is anthropological, biological, and genetic evidence, and which remains measurable in all human beings to date--is one consisting of a longer bout of continuous sleep at night, followed by a shorter midafternoon nap."

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                            • BRBFBI
                              GETLAZY MEMBER
                              Level 8 - Treehouse Builder
                              • Oct 2023
                              • 74

                              #119
                              Stuff like this really makes me want to study Epistemology. If I hadn't already read Why We Sleep I wouldn't have had any suspicions about the contents of the video, although the other uploads by this Youtuber have clickbaity titles in the "forbidden knowledge/what they don't want you to know" vein which is a bit of a turnoff. They obviously have a financial incentive to draw in viewers while also having very little incentive to verify the integrity of their information (and perhaps even a disincentive since shocking facts, even if wrong, get more views). They also uploaded 50 videos in a year (that's almost one a week), so I don't think you could call them passion projects.

                              I'm also fascinated by the intersection of free speech and misinformation. I'm a big believer in freedom of speech, but also recognize that misinformation can be harmful and is very easy to produce and find an audience for through technology. I strongly believe that neither government NOR technology companies should not be the ones determining what we can see and say. YouTube has already proven they are unable to interpret satire and banished many of the edgier content creators from their platform.

                              If I don't want to be saved from misinformation by government or corporations then I need a way of dealing with it myself. I feel like I'm a pretty discerning person, but the problem is we all think that.

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                              • chuft
                                Stepher
                                SPECIAL MEMBER
                                MODERATOR
                                Level 31 - Number 9
                                • Dec 2007
                                • 3290

                                #120
                                Originally posted by BRBFBI

                                I recently read Why We Sleep by Mather Walker, PhD. Our understanding of sleep has evolved tremendously in the 20 years since Robert Ekirch (the source in the video) published his findings about biphasic sleep, and while it's true that it may have been in-fashion to wake up in the middle of the night in certain cultures at certain times in history, according to Walker "there is no biological rhythm--of brain activity, neorochemical activity, or metabolic activity--that would hint at a human desire to wake up for several hours in the middle of the night. Instead, the true pattern of biphasic sleep--for which there is anthropological, biological, and genetic evidence, and which remains measurable in all human beings to date--is one consisting of a longer bout of continuous sleep at night, followed by a shorter midafternoon nap."


                                Hmmm. That seems to contradict this study.

                                (Hope you use the dark theme like me, or this might be hard to read )


                                In short photoperiods, human sleep is biphasic

                                Abstract

                                SUMMARY Results of a photoperiod experiment show that human sleep can be unconsolidated and polyphasic, like the sleep of other animals. When normal individuals were transferred from a conventional 16-h photoperiod to an experimental 10-h photo-period, their sleep episodes expanded and usually divided into two symmetrical bouts, several hours in duration, with a 1–3 h waking interval between them. The durations of nocturnal melatonin secretion and of the nocturnal phase of rising sleepiness (measured in a constant routine protocol) also expanded, indicating that the timing of internal processes that control sleep and melatonin, such as circadian rhythms, had been modified by the change in photoperiod. Previous work suggests that the experimental results could be simulated with dual-oscillators, entrained separately to dawn and dusk, or with a two-process model, having a lowered threshold for sleep-onset during the scotoperiod.



                                https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1992.tb00019.x


                                and this one

                                Segmented sleep in a nonelectric, small-scale agricultural society in Madagascar

                                Conclusions

                                Sleep in this population is segmented, similar to the “first” sleep and “second” sleep reported in the historical record. Moreover, although average sleep duration and quality were lower than documented in Western populations, circadian rhythms were more stable across days.​


                                https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/ajhb.22979




                                Ekirch's research continued to the present. From a 2022 BBC article:



                                Collectively, this research has also given Ekirch the explanation he had been craving for why much of humanity abandoned the two-sleep system, starting from the early 19th Century. As with other recent shifts in our behaviour, such as a move towards depending on clock-time, the answer was the Industrial Revolution.​

                                "Artificial illumination became more prevalent, and more powerful – first there was gas [lighting], which was introduced for the first time ever in London," says Ekirch, "and then, of course, electric lighting toward the end of the century. And in addition to altering people's circadian rhythms. artificial illumination also naturally allowed people to stay up later."

                                However, though people weren't going to bed at 21:00 anymore, they still had to wake up at the same time in the morning – so their rest was truncated. Ekirch believes that this made their sleep deeper, because it was compressed.

                                As well as altering the population's circadian rhythms, the artificial lighting lengthened the first sleep, and shortened the second. "And I was able to trace [this], almost decade by decade, over the course of the 19th Century," says Ekirch.



                                https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...biphasic-sleep



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